06:47:27 AM> tmac: hello............
06:51:45 AM> KOR: good morning,Tom
06:52:48 AM> tmac: Hi Kana!
06:52:50 AM> KOR: hello???
06:52:53 AM> tmac: What happened?
06:52:55 AM> KOR: Hi,Tom
06:52:57 AM> KOR: sorry
06:53:03 AM> KOR: I just kicked out
06:53:05 AM> tmac: Are u ok?
06:53:08 AM> KOR: okay
06:53:11 AM> KOR: all right
06:53:19 AM> KOR: so How are you????
06:53:20 AM> tmac: Thank you for your LONG email...it was nice to hear from you
06:53:31 AM> KOR: your welcome
06:53:40 AM> KOR: I didn't hear from you for a while
06:53:49 AM> KOR: R u okay??
06:53:58 AM> tmac: ...BTW....our friendship is still good!!!!..it's just that I have really been so busy
06:54:23 AM> KOR: okay,,,,, I was relief
06:54:30 AM> tmac: I know I should write every day...but some days it is just VERY busy!
06:54:58 AM> tmac: .....This student teaching needs a lot of preparation...
06:55:01 AM> KOR: I know! When you get to time to write to me, please Email me
06:55:10 AM> tmac: How was your St. Patrick's Day?
06:55:22 AM> KOR: How about you????
06:55:28 AM> tmac: I will write you a long emeil....I promise!
06:55:37 AM> KOR: Arigato
06:55:51 AM> KOR: How was St,patricks day???????????
06:55:52 AM> tmac: I went into the parade....it was very cold.........
06:56:02 AM> KOR: oh, very cold???
06:56:12 AM> tmac: So, how have you been?
06:56:27 AM> KOR: I have been busy busy........
06:56:43 AM> tmac: It is traditional to eat cornbeef and cabage for dinner.....did u ever hear of it?
06:56:45 AM> KOR: I have to get up at 6:00 oclock!! every morning
06:57:09 AM> tmac: So you said....anything I can help you with?
06:57:10 AM> KOR: I hear cornbeef but I have no idea cabage
06:57:23 AM> tmac: I know...I will wake you in the morning.....
06:57:50 AM> tmac: I could not wake you today because I was on the subway at that time
06:57:59 AM> KOR: okay,Tom!!!
06:58:21 AM> tmac: So...I will give you a wake up call evey day this week!
06:58:44 AM> tmac: ....and hear your so sleepy voice!
06:58:57 AM> tmac: How is your family?
06:59:29 AM> tmac: Are you doing any course work in English?
06:59:44 AM> KOR: Thanks so much......
06:59:52 AM> tmac: Kana?
06:59:53 AM> KOR: They are good
07:00:19 AM> tmac: Can I help you?
07:00:26 AM> KOR: no..... I don't course work in English....
07:00:27 AM> KOR: thanks
07:01:04 AM> KOR: How is your family????
07:02:02 AM> KOR: Tom???
07:02:08 AM> KOR: R u there???
07:04:45 AM> tmac: Hi..........
07:04:50 AM> KOR: R u okay??
07:04:57 AM> tmac: I.m sorry....it froze on me.
07:05:01 AM> KOR: okay
07:05:11 AM> tmac: I could not get back...........
07:05:20 AM> tmac: Are u there?
07:05:20 AM> KOR: Tom, R u at home now??
07:05:31 AM> KOR: or school??
07:05:35 AM> tmac: I.m good now.....
07:06:06 AM> tmac: Thee was a group from Japam marching in the St. Patrick's Day parade here in NYC
07:06:24 AM> tmac: no....I.m at school...just got here a few minutes ago....
07:06:29 AM> KOR: oh, was that good?
07:07:27 AM> KOR: ???
07:07:49 AM> KOR: kevi
07:07:54 AM> KOR: TOM????
07:07:54 AM> tmac: Hold on
07:08:04 AM> KOR: ok..........
07:08:44 AM> tmac: I.m back..........
07:08:48 AM> KOR: singing a song//////
07:08:52 AM> KOR: okay
07:09:09 AM> KOR: so, How was Japan marching?
07:09:14 AM> tmac: Somebody came into the computer room to ask me a queation...
07:09:24 AM> tmac: What are u singing?
07:09:33 AM> KOR: Japanese song
07:09:44 AM> tmac: IThey were very good! I thought of you!
07:10:04 AM> KOR: you thought of me??? you could find me???:)
07:10:07 AM> tmac: Next St. Patrick's Day...we will march together!!!!!!!!!!
07:10:22 AM> KOR: YEAH!!!!! I would love to!!!
07:10:55 AM> tmac: Yes, I thought of you! I think of you a lot!!!!!!!
07:11:10 AM> KOR: Arigatooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
07:11:54 AM> tmac: Is there a parade in Osaka?
07:12:57 AM> KOR: Midosuzi parade
07:13:19 AM> tmac: St. Patrick's Day parade?
07:13:25 AM> KOR: I often go to Kyoto festival
07:13:27 AM> KOR: NOOOOOO
07:13:43 AM> KOR: Japanese don't know st.patricks day!
07:13:54 AM> tmac: I think there is a St. Patrick's Day parade in Tokyo
07:13:59 AM> tmac: It was on TV..........
07:14:05 AM> KOR: oh, I see
07:14:27 AM> KOR: I saw st.patricks day from books.
07:14:37 AM> tmac: You know St. Patricks's Day becuase of me.............:)
07:14:56 AM> KOR: Yep:)
07:15:08 AM> tmac: I have to go soon...........
07:15:16 AM> KOR: and Will you go to teach in Tokyo???
07:15:26 AM> KOR: oh,I hate to see you go..........
07:15:55 AM> tmac: ...no Osaka!
07:16:09 AM> KOR: by force......
07:16:25 AM> tmac: by force?
07:16:30 AM> KOR: you have to go to Tokyo, cos It has many schools:)
07:16:45 AM> KOR: It is good for you ....I think
07:17:09 AM> tmac: I don't know yet!
07:17:17 AM> KOR: okay!
07:17:19 AM> KOR: Tom
07:17:24 AM> KOR: you better go!
07:17:34 AM> KOR: Don't be late for class!!!
07:17:42 AM> KOR: like me:p:p:p
07:17:45 AM> tmac: I will give you a wake up call and I will write to you later.........:)
07:17:50 AM> tmac: Thanks!
07:17:59 AM> KOR: okay. thanks so much!
07:18:10 AM> tmac: Be good and get to bed early!
07:18:15 AM> KOR: Have a nice day!
07:18:24 AM> KOR: yeah!!!
07:18:37 AM> tmac: .....and don't be sleepy when I wake you............
07:18:46 AM> tmac: .the bell.bye!
07:18:48 AM> KOR: I will
07:18:51 AM> KOR: bye bye
07:19:08 AM> tmac: Thanks for your St. Pat's cards!!!!!..nice............bye!
07:19:19 AM> KOR: your welcome...bye
07:19:25 AM> tmac: Ta gra agam leat! XOXOXOXO
07:19:35 AM> KOR: XXXXXXXXOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
07:19:45 AM> KOR: me too!!!
07:19:59 AM> tmac: WOW!////////////////BYE KANA!
07:20:05 AM> KOR: bye bye!Tom
07:20:14 AM> KOR: Be good in class
07:22:45 AM> KOR: //aspirin
03:31:15 PM> mira leibovich: //thumbsup //thumbsup
06:36:26 PM> triece: i want to know what's the meaning of pediatric
06:43:18 PM> josue: hello
06:44:16 PM> josue: hello
08:05:57 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Hi Andrea
08:06:03 PM> Andrea: Hi
08:06:07 PM> Andrea: I am having troubles
08:06:14 PM> Mary Ryngaert: What type?
08:06:16 PM> Andrea: i need to go out and come back in
08:09:55 PM> Len: Hello, Andrea. Len Levy, pediatrician, Fayetteville NY
08:10:38 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Hi all. Liz Baldwin will be here presently. I just spoke to her a half an hour ago.
08:10:39 PM> JuliusE: good evening ladies and zaida len
08:10:43 PM> Len: Shalom, Julius.
08:11:01 PM> JuliusE: shalom Chaver
08:11:28 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Welcome, Liz
08:11:30 PM> Len: //rose to the ladies
08:11:34 PM> JuliusE: Julius Edlavitch pediatrician Minneapolis Minnesota USA
08:11:50 PM> JuliusE: good evening LIZ welcome
08:11:58 PM> Liz Baldwin: Good evening everyone!
08:12:02 PM> karen g: Karen Gromada, IBCLC in Cincinnati, OH
08:12:18 PM> JuliusE: welcome karen
08:12:21 PM> JudyS: Hi, I'm Judy Silvio, an RN and CLC student in California
08:12:37 PM> Andrea: Andrea Eastman, IBCLC, Granville, Ohio
08:12:38 PM> JuliusE: I expect a nice crowd tonight becasue i had a few interested emails
08:12:50 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Hi, I'm a PNP and IBCLC (brand new!) from Gainesville, FL
08:13:08 PM> JuliusE: Hi Judy and Andrea and Mary and karen and karleen
08:13:12 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Yes, judging from the crowd already, I think there will be a nice group tonight.
08:13:15 PM> Len: Congratulations Mary //smiley
08:13:22 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Thanks, Len!
08:13:34 PM> JuliusE: //rose MARy
08:13:34 PM> Liz Baldwin: I'm glad to be here and to be talking about my favorite subject!
08:14:02 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Andrea has been having computer problems
08:14:08 PM> JuliusE: where will you start LIZ
08:14:18 PM> JuliusE: welcome PAT
08:14:41 PM> Liz Baldwin: We could talk tonight about a few legal breastfeeding issues...
08:14:52 PM> JuliusE: this should be interesting
08:14:54 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Go for it, Liz.
08:14:56 PM> Liz Baldwin: such as the case from Illinois where social services removed the child for extended breastfeeding
08:15:05 PM> PatIBCLC: Nice to have you with us Liz...........Pat Lindsey, IBCLC in Orlando
08:15:10 PM> Liz Baldwin: and also about the Judge who ordered that the mother pump milk for a newborn in a divorce case...
08:15:10 PM> JuliusE: what happened in this case
08:15:15 PM> Liz Baldwin: Hello Pat!
08:15:42 PM> Liz Baldwin: Why don't we start with extended breastfeeding?
08:15:49 PM> Mary Ryngaert: great.
08:15:52 PM> JuliusE: that must have made this mom feel weird in a divorse o have to pump her milk
08:15:56 PM> karleen: Hi I'm Karleen Gribble B.Rur.Sc., PhD budding researcher in adoptive BF in NSW, Australia
08:15:57 PM> JuliusE: ok
08:16:07 PM> JuliusE: welcome AUSsIE
08:17:04 PM> Liz Baldwin: Yes! Unfortunately, breastfeeding misinformation affects all of our society, especially the legal system
08:17:04 PM> JuliusE: what happened in Extended Breastfeeding case
08:17:19 PM> Liz Baldwin: The mother was nursing a five year old child. She was a single mom, working full time,
08:17:25 PM> Liz Baldwin: and he nursed for a few minutes before going to sleep.
08:17:43 PM> Liz Baldwin: The baby sitter she hired was very against the extended breastfeeding, and would tell him all the time that only babies nursed.
08:18:02 PM> Liz Baldwin: The baby sitter reported the mother to social services, and when they came out, they wanted her to agree to wean immediately.
08:18:11 PM> Liz Baldwin: The mother did not believe that she was doing anything wrong, and would not agree to wean.
08:18:26 PM> Liz Baldwin: They removed her child and placed him in foster care, with the baby sitter, who then received state money for caring for him.
08:18:40 PM> Liz Baldwin: The mother had a public defender, and could not afford private attorneys, or experts.
08:18:59 PM> PatIBCLC: This was none of the baby sitter's business.
08:19:05 PM> Liz Baldwin: She eventually went to trial, and by then the concern was that the child supposedly told the baby sitter that he wanted to wean
08:19:15 PM> Liz Baldwin: but he never told the mother - but the Judge apparently held that she was guilty of neglect
08:19:24 PM> Liz Baldwin: for failing to wean him when he expressed a desire to do so.
08:19:44 PM> Liz Baldwin: It was very crazy, and simply misinformation about breastfeeding and weaning that resulted in this.
08:19:51 PM> Len: Was he healthy and immunized?
08:19:58 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Is there any appeal pending?
08:20:12 PM> Liz Baldwin: Yes, and he was doing well. There was no problem with his development or anything else.
08:20:26 PM> Liz Baldwin: After she was found guilty, private attorneys came forward in her state and agreed to take over the case.
08:20:35 PM> Liz Baldwin: Almost immediately, the Judge vacated her finding of neglect.
08:20:39 PM> Len: IMHO, it's nobody's business.
08:20:43 PM> Liz Baldwin: She returned the child to the mother by the end of the month.
08:20:55 PM> Liz Baldwin: They are still working on getting all the charges dropped, and all that is left...
08:21:01 PM> Mary Ryngaert: I wonder if he began bfing again...
08:21:09 PM> Liz Baldwin: is neglect for letting him ride his bike around the block on the sidewalk.
08:21:17 PM> karleen: What role do associations like LLL and NMAA play in a situation like this?
08:21:30 PM> Liz Baldwin: What few realize is that the trauma is removing this child from his home for having a basic need to breastfeed.
08:21:31 PM> karen g: Did the judge, social services, babysitter, etc. think she "forced" a five year old to breast when he allegedly wanted to wean? Give me a break!
08:21:34 PM> karinibclc: why does it matter if the child was immunized?
08:21:50 PM> Mary Ryngaert: shows he was cared for
08:22:04 PM> Liz Baldwin: It might matter if she had other 'attachment styles of parenting' involved here - all she did was have the family bed, and breastfeed.
08:22:09 PM> karinibclc: i dont know any child who could be forced to breastfeed
08:22:21 PM> karinibclc: i have enough problems with babies >:)
08:22:22 PM> Liz Baldwin: They thought that she was 'encouraging' him to breastfeed for her own reasons.
08:22:38 PM> Liz Baldwin: I used to tell everyone that you can't make them nurse - they'll bite... ;-)
08:22:45 PM> Len: That's far-fetched
08:23:02 PM> Liz Baldwin: but I guess it is POSSIBLE for a mother SOMEWHERE to have some SICK MOTIVE in trying to make her child breastfeed....
08:23:07 PM> Liz Baldwin: but I've never met one before...
08:23:18 PM> Mary Ryngaert: You know, Liz, I've heard bfing advocates imply there was more to this case--like the mom was not quite right
08:23:26 PM> JuliusE: //rose welcome Joan
08:23:32 PM> Len: I doubt that he was nursing, but merely suckling.
08:23:38 PM> Liz Baldwin: I have been making lots of statements to the press about this that children will wean in their own time...
08:23:46 PM> Mary Ryngaert: It's interesting that you hear about the removal of the child, and then not about his return to the home.
08:23:54 PM> Liz Baldwin: and that just because someone wouldn't choose this for themselves, does not mean we should condemn mothers who do...
08:24:08 PM> Liz Baldwin: especially since we are recommending child led weaning all over the world...
08:24:22 PM> Liz Baldwin: we are fast to imply malicious motives to breastfeeding mothers...
08:24:33 PM> Liz Baldwin: when all they are doing is being responsive to their child's needs.
08:24:43 PM> Liz Baldwin: I want everyone to know just how long children can nurse.
08:24:50 PM> Liz Baldwin: This case has helped to bring information like that out.
08:24:56 PM> karinibclc: i dont think it did much to help us in our crusades since most would be scared off by this type of activity and teh negative press it got
08:25:10 PM> Liz Baldwin: By the way, we know of several ten and one-half year olds that weaned -
08:25:24 PM> PatIBCLC: Society just doesn't understand breastfeeding. They don't realize the relationship and the comfort a child finds at the breast.
08:25:27 PM> Liz Baldwin: and I have been letting the press know that. We had a social service agency a few years ago look into nursing at age eight...
08:25:36 PM> Mary Ryngaert: I don't know, Karin, maybe people will gradually become immunized to the idea by hearing the stories.
08:25:37 PM> Liz Baldwin: two six year olds in Florida...
08:26:03 PM> Liz Baldwin: I'm not sure anyone was scared off by this one, but that was true with the Perrigo case in 1991.
08:26:13 PM> JuliusE: welcome trish
08:26:19 PM> Mary Ryngaert: That case made me very sad.
08:26:32 PM> Liz Baldwin: I want people to be immunized to it, I want the legal system to hear about this, and to realize that breastfeeding at any age is not abnormal.
08:26:48 PM> Liz Baldwin: It was tragic that this poor little boy was made to feel so bad about having such a basic need.
08:27:08 PM> karinibclc: yea the poor kids
08:27:18 PM> karleen: Can I ask the question again? I don't think we have had a case like this in Australia...if there has been I haven't heard of it. What role do organisations like LLL adn NMAA play when somethinglike this happens? Do they have a role?M
08:27:19 PM> Liz Baldwin: Is anyone shocked to hear that kids can breastfeed until 10?
08:27:35 PM> Liz Baldwin: I'm not sure that these organizations have a role...
08:27:42 PM> Liz Baldwin: other than to provide information and help.
08:27:54 PM> Len: Liz, are they feeding or suckling?
08:27:56 PM> Liz Baldwin: These mothers need good legal representation
08:28:01 PM> karinibclc: i think they do what they can to support and help them find representation
08:28:05 PM> karen g: You mentioned initially that the babysitter didn't believe in extended nursing and that she kept saying only babies nurse. How did she come to know this child still nursed at bedtime? Most couplets I know keep quiet unless certain there's no objection--that includes the child keeping it quiet...
08:28:19 PM> LLLLTrishK: Hello, I'm Trish K, in OK.
08:28:47 PM> JuliusE: Welcome Dr Khandelwal from India
08:28:48 PM> Liz Baldwin: Len, children that nurse that long are doing it for comfort, sometimes only a few minutes at night, or every now and then. Many are often nearly weaned for many years.
08:28:53 PM> Dr R K Khandelwal: Thanks
08:28:59 PM> JuliusE: welcome trish
08:29:03 PM> karinibclc: they shouldnt have to keep quiet but most do just to not have to explain themselves
08:29:07 PM> Liz Baldwin: Karen, the mother told the baby sitter when she hired her, not thinking that this should be a problem.
08:29:48 PM> karen g: Was she a new sitter then?
08:29:53 PM> Liz Baldwin: Few mothers who breastfeed that long will tell anyone. By the way, one of the mothers of the 10 yr old is a clinical psychologist
08:30:00 PM> karinibclc: and i heard that the babysitter got custody is this true??
08:30:04 PM> Liz Baldwin: who poo pooed others breastfeeding at age four or five when her child was young!
08:30:18 PM> karleen: It makes me mad that any mother who is breastfeeding her child should need legal representation. How often does this sort of thing happen?
08:30:47 PM> LLLLTrishK: :) Thanks all. This whole case was very sad, esp. the impact on this child.
08:30:52 PM> Liz Baldwin: Karen, the sitter was hired about nine months earlier. After she was hired, the mother was reported to the SSA two other times - for ridiculous things - starving her child, dental neglect...
08:31:07 PM> LLLLTrishK: makes me very cautious about when I share about my nurslings
08:31:10 PM> Len: Karleen, she's not breast feeding. She's choosing to comfort the child with her breast.
08:31:16 PM> JudyS: I'm not sure "shocked" is the word, but as an almost psychologist (ABD) I would like to know about the other aspects of a breastfeeding ten-year old child's development, like how their peer relationships are and whether they feel confident when venturing out into the world.
08:31:25 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Liz, I'll be honest and say that when you mentioned 10 year olds nursing, it did surprise me. Because I have a 10 year old daughter in the next room! But I wouldn't pass judgement on another's extended breastfeeding, and often wish I had nursed longer.
08:31:52 PM> Liz Baldwin: Karleen, luckily most mothers will never have this type of problem. I have seen maybe 20 times that the agencies have looked at this issue over the past 10 years, in all the states - not much - and every other one..,.
08:32:02 PM> Liz Baldwin: was closed out as soon as they got information about extended brf...
08:32:31 PM> Liz Baldwin: what I recommend to educate: AAP Recommendations - plus footnote 104 with Dr. Sugerman's study looking at the normalcy of extended breastfeeding thru age 5-6 in the US
08:32:33 PM> karen g: Hmm, sounds like there is a lot more to this story then--either about the mother or the sitter!
08:32:46 PM> Liz Baldwin: and Dettwyler's A Time to Wean from Breastfeeding Abstracts.
08:33:00 PM> LLLLTrishK: I understand that mothering.com's forums had posts by the mother in this case.
08:33:36 PM> Bonnie: I'm sorry that I entered in late. Has the latest 20/20 show that airedlast week about extended breastfeeding to be bad for hear disease have any merit ?
08:33:46 PM> Liz Baldwin: About the sitter, Karen...
08:33:57 PM> Bonnie: I meant heart disease
08:34:02 PM> Liz Baldwin: Gak - what 2020 show?
08:34:07 PM> JuliusE: i did not see it Bonnie
08:34:23 PM> Liz Baldwin: By the way, one of the 10 year olds was a girl - she was a homeschooler, and a very nice person.
08:34:28 PM> karleen: Whre can the study by Dr Sugerman that you referred to be found?
08:34:34 PM> Liz Baldwin: She is an only child, and just had that need longer than one might think.
08:34:49 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Was it based on the study that babies who bf past 4 months had higher risk of heart disease?
08:34:54 PM> Len: Who had the need, mom or child?
08:34:55 PM> Bonnie: On abc last friday night here infl, they ran a story about why you should not breastfeed past 6 months of age.
08:35:25 PM> Bonnie: Probably Mary
08:35:26 PM> Liz Baldwin: The child had the need - the mother was thrilled when she finally weaned.
08:35:32 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Bonnie, that was in the papers too. Read the lactnet for posts on it.
08:35:54 PM> Liz Baldwin: That is exactly the problem - we think that these mothers are encouraging it, when in reality they have gotten to a point where they are just going to let the child decide when to stop.
08:36:19 PM> LLLLTrishK: is that referring to the BMJ article re: "stiffened arteries" as an early marker for heart disease?
08:36:21 PM> Bonnie: ok, I just had a whole bunch of nurses attack me in the NICu about how bad breastfeeding was longterm
08:36:56 PM> JuliusE: nothing worse than nurses to be against breastfeeding
08:36:56 PM> Mary Ryngaert: garbage. Tell them to review the facts.
08:36:56 PM> Bonnie: It could be more ammunition for those who see extended nursing as bad
08:37:05 PM> LLLLTrishK: Bonnie, did they give you their evidence to support their position? or just anecdotes or negative personal experience
08:37:09 PM> Len: Extremely complicated problem. We don't let 10 year olds make decisions about other people's bodies...
08:37:10 PM> Liz Baldwin: Have you seen the study from China about breastfeeding at least two years and reducing the risk of both pre and post menopausal breast cancer by 50%?
08:37:49 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Liz why is breastfeeding never mentioned in breast cancer articles and books for women?
08:37:56 PM> Liz Baldwin: But there is nothing wrong with a mother choosing to allow her child to wean naturally
08:37:56 PM> Liz Baldwin: even if that is not something that you would do.
08:37:56 PM> Liz Baldwin: We can't be trying to encourage mothers to breastfeed longer and then remove their children for doing so.
08:38:19 PM> JudyS: As an only child, who was not home-schooled, I would be concerned if this child was turning so much to mom for comfort that she wasn't having enough experiences in learning to interact with other children. If mother wanted her to wean, perhaps she was allowing her to remain too close a bit too long. After all, we have to say "No" to our kids about other things that are not in their best interests, why should weaning from the breast at 10 be any different?
08:38:22 PM> Liz Baldwin: It doesn't matter if it is three, six, or ten.
08:38:48 PM> Liz Baldwin: By the way, I got a call today from a mom who is being investigated by a SSA for nursing a three year old!
08:38:49 PM> Len: Yes there is, Liz
08:39:20 PM> Len: Children's judgements at age 10 is different from age 3.
08:39:22 PM> Liz Baldwin: This girl is now 15 years old, driving a car, has tons of friends, and always has. Her mother is a focal person in the homeschooling group, on their board, yadda yadda
08:40:21 PM> Liz Baldwin: The other one is a little boy who is very small for his age, but very intelligent. His mother is a child psychologist, and never dreamed that she would breastfeed six months, yet ten years.
08:40:26 PM> karleen: There is a practice called 'reparenting' used with children adopted at 'older' ages in which they make up for experiences missed earlier by regressing. An oft suggested part of a way to do it is by giving the child a bottle as you hold them... talking up to 10 years oldI'm interested in the idea of using breastfeeding in a similar way.
08:40:34 PM> Len: A 10 year old should know very well that there are other sources of food than mom.
08:40:37 PM> Liz Baldwin: He is well adjusted, intelligent, and a great kid. He is 12 now.
08:41:03 PM> karleen: But the worry of how people would see it is real. Many people see adoptive breastfeeeding even of a young child as suspect.
08:41:12 PM> karen g: Liz, I've been called in as an "expert" witness in a couple of custody cases of approximately 1 year olds. No surprise--the dads were wanting extended visitation of several days (weekends), including overnights. In neither case were the parents ever married. It was just awful to see how little the child's developmental needs were taken into consideration.
08:41:24 PM> Liz Baldwin: It isn't food - it is connection with mom - something that is natural for him.
08:41:27 PM> LLLLTrishK: Len, nursing is not just about a method of food transferral into a child, it is so much more
08:41:44 PM> Liz Baldwin: I agree, Karleen, even breastfeeding a newborn adoptive baby can be frought with difficulties from our society.
08:41:59 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Judy, do you think we will ever get an honest sample of parents and kids who can enlighten us about the topic? I think it'll be a tough one to prove, either way.
08:42:21 PM> Liz Baldwin: Yes. Actually I've been working with severall moms now that are nursing two year olds, and they are just starting overnights.
08:42:37 PM> Liz Baldwin: It can be done without weaning, but it takes some creativity and patience, and working together.
08:42:37 PM> Len: OK that's my point. At age 10, there are other ways to connect with mom, and the child and mom should know it.
08:42:46 PM> Liz Baldwin: The courts are fast to think that you have to pick - breastfeeding or dad's bond.
08:43:15 PM> karleen: I agree Len there are other ways but what is the problem you have with older children breastfeeding?
08:43:19 PM> Liz Baldwin: Len, that may be true for many moms, but if a mother chooses to let her child continue to do so, she should not have someone else's opinion substituted for hers.
08:43:33 PM> karleen: Is it because of how other people see it?
08:43:58 PM> Liz Baldwin: Len, you may not choose that for yourself, but others should have the right to decide what works for their family.
08:44:24 PM> Liz Baldwin: Part of the problem with the Illinois case was the court substituting their own personal opinion for the mothers...
08:44:43 PM> Len: At age 10, it isn't breast feeding. It's far more complicated than that.
08:44:56 PM> JudyS: I don't know, Mary. After I finish my current research study with WIC clients I could really see myself doing such a study, if I could find enough parents and children with very extended breastfeeding experiences to volunteer and be open to answering openly about their perceptions of the meaning of the breastfeeding experience in their lives.
08:45:01 PM> Liz Baldwin: However, you all should know that NO SSA in the US has upheld any finding that breastfeeding is abuse or neglect at any age, and they have investigated cases up through age 10.
08:45:32 PM> PatIBCLC: I love where Dr. Lee Salk states in his book What Every Child Would Like His Parent to Know, that weaning to late is by no means as determental to the child as weaning too soon.
08:45:41 PM> Bonnie: Both of my children weaned themselves. I wanted my son to nurse longer, but at 2 1/2 he said he was done. I know of 5 and 6 year old who nurse. But I never considered 10 year olds. I've learned something.
08:45:58 PM> Mary Ryngaert: My point exactly Judy. Few people bfing very long are going to be honest, especially in a society that doesn't support extended bfing.
08:46:31 PM> Liz Baldwin: Keep in mind that the child past age five is probably nearly weaned for many years - some will only breastfeed for a few minutes when sick, or every few weeks when feeling more needy - the mother is just being responsive to their need.
08:46:39 PM> Karleen: Liz, what's a SSA?
08:47:00 PM> Liz Baldwin: And when mothers breastfeed that long, they stop noticing how old their child is - they know that the child will wean eventually, and that it does not have to be monitored.
08:47:14 PM> LLLLTrishK: Especially when you have the fear of DHS or the State knocking on your door. Even if the case is dismissed, as Liz stated above, you still have the upheaval of the family, the turmoil, the publicity, etc.
08:47:14 PM> Liz Baldwin: Social Service Agency...
08:47:44 PM> Liz Baldwin: Yes, it is very upsetting even to the mothers who just had to give some info and that resolved it.
08:47:47 PM> Karleen: Liz, if you are breastfeeding an older child, are there any tricks to minimise the chances of legal problems?
08:48:05 PM> LLLLTrishK: good question, Karleen!
08:48:14 PM> karinibclc: can you believe we have to ask that?
08:48:22 PM> Liz Baldwin: Try to be as cooperative with them while they investigate their case...
08:48:31 PM> Liz Baldwin: I'll throw another one at you.
08:48:40 PM> JuliusE: ok
08:48:41 PM> Liz Baldwin: If the case worker came to your door and said 'wean' or else, what would you do?
08:48:43 PM> Liz Baldwin: At any age?
08:48:47 PM> LLLLTrishK: or else
08:48:50 PM> karinibclc: lie
08:48:52 PM> Mary Ryngaert: I'll guess that most research subjects still feel that they could be reported if the researcher didn't agree with their parenting.
08:49:00 PM> Karleen: Get nicked!
08:49:09 PM> Liz Baldwin: I have asked many extended breastfeeders what they would do and they seem to fall equally into one of two camps...
08:49:13 PM> Karleen: Not really, but what would you say?
08:49:24 PM> Liz Baldwin: As the mother in Illinois, about 1/2 say "you can't tell me what to do".
08:49:47 PM> Liz Baldwin: I belong to the other camp - do you want me to whistle dixie while I run around the house naked?
08:49:58 PM> Mary Ryngaert: I'd do the latter and fire the sitter.
08:50:00 PM> Liz Baldwin: I would agree to whatever I had to to prevent my child from being removed.
08:50:09 PM> LLLLTrishK: have you ever had a mother go "underground"?
08:50:09 PM> Bonnie: Is it really bad to have a one year old have an overnight visit with dad if the child sleeps alone and only nurses during the day?
08:50:24 PM> Liz Baldwin: Then I would do whatever I had to do to assure them that my child was safe pending their investigation, even if it meant hiring someone to monitor me.
08:50:47 PM> Liz Baldwin: Going undergroud is playing monopoly - go to jail directly to jail and do not pass go.
08:50:49 PM> PatIBCLC: It's sad to think that mom's should have to nurse an older child in secret, how can social change come about in secret.
08:50:57 PM> karinibclc: so hwat age is poilitically correct?
08:51:18 PM> Liz Baldwin: Bonne, many one year olds can go overnight - and this is exactly what I look for. Where does the child sleep? Can he be cared for by someone at night or is he tucked under mom's wing all night?
08:51:40 PM> Liz Baldwin: In family court, nursing past age two is problematic.
08:51:45 PM> JudyS: One of my concerns would be the effect of the secretiveness upon a child of ten...knowing that our society doesn't understand or approve of such extended nursing. Would the anxiety about covering this up be more damaging than the comfort the nursing provided. Of course it would be better if everyone would be non-judgmental, but that is highly unlikely ever to happen in this country (at least for ten-year-olds). I'm just concerned about the damage that any family secrets can create.
08:51:48 PM> karinibclc: really??
08:51:51 PM> Karleen: How do the social workers etc respond when given a stack of info that says that it's OK?
08:52:05 PM> Liz Baldwin: The rest of the world, well I think that our society will tolerate thru age five now because of this case, but before it was probably two.
08:52:06 PM> karen g: In both cases I was called on, the dads had hardly had any contact until babies were a few months old. Suddnely they became interested and expected these little ones to "know"them and stay with them.
08:52:24 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Good points, all, Judy.
08:52:34 PM> Mary Ryngaert: I'd never tell my 10 year old to lie.
08:52:56 PM> Mary Ryngaert: But I would say "Some things are no one else's business".
08:52:57 PM> Liz Baldwin: JudyS, ah - one of the reasons the judge gave for coming up with the rationalization that it was neglectful - but in reality, kids don't think like we do as adults - I've seen kids with my own eyes bragging about how long they were breastfed...
08:53:09 PM> Liz Baldwin: and it consisted of just normal, mainstream kids.
08:53:21 PM> LLLLTrishK: What about other "health related" secrets that older children hold, such as whether they wear a pull up at night due to bed wetting, or whether they still suck their thumbs, etc?
08:53:25 PM> Liz Baldwin: If we adults did not think that breastfeeding was abnormal, kids would not.
08:53:37 PM> Liz Baldwin: By the way Michael Jordan was breastfeed till 3 or 4...
08:53:50 PM> karinibclc: it figures
08:53:50 PM> Mary Ryngaert: and look where it got him
08:54:16 PM> LLLLTrishK: yes, I've heard the analogy that Michael jordan was BF'd, and Michael Jackson was not, and which one would you like your son to model himself after?! LOL!
08:54:26 PM> karinibclc: lol
08:54:33 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Liz, our time is fading. IS there anything else you want to mention?
08:54:55 PM> Liz Baldwin: Trish, yes! What about nighttime wetting? Do we remove kids who wear diapers at night because the mother didn't toilet train them good enough?
08:55:00 PM> JuliusE: 20 more minutes
08:55:11 PM> Liz Baldwin: By the way, most social service agencies immediately close out the case when they get the info I listed...
08:55:16 PM> JuliusE: plenty time
08:55:24 PM> Mary Ryngaert: it's gone very quickly tonight
08:55:25 PM> karinibclc: wow what an eye opener i am in a state of shock and hope that we can do something to change this we are trying to get people to bfeed longer and this is not helping
08:55:42 PM> JudyS: I really have no question about psychological issues for toddlers, even kindergarten kids at night. I would just question whether the mother of an older child was exploring all of the life-long coping and comfort strategies she could be introducing her child to.
08:55:43 PM> Liz Baldwin: You bet!
08:56:06 PM> Liz Baldwin: Judy, and for most mothers, they never have to deal with it because their kid will wean earlier.
08:56:23 PM> LLLLTrishK: exactly my opint. None of his (or her) friends business whether that is the situation.... and same with thumb suckers. I know of several friends who only now are admitting to others that they sucked their thumbs as long as they have I've seen letters in advice columns about adults that still suck their thumbs...
08:56:25 PM> Liz Baldwin: But the child who does not, the mother can choose to encourage weaning as you mention, or she can let it go its course.
08:57:01 PM> Liz Baldwin: I heard recently of an eight year old who has to leave his band lesson to go and have his bottle...
08:57:10 PM> Liz Baldwin: not everyone knows that he HAS To have his bottle...
08:57:25 PM> Liz Baldwin: The need to suck does not go away when we just want it to
08:57:35 PM> LLLLTrishK: I would imagine a lot of these moms are pretty ambivalent... with their feelings about TWorNTW (to wean or not to wean) going back and forth
08:57:36 PM> Liz Baldwin: and there is nothing wrong with allowing children to become independent naturally.
08:58:02 PM> Liz Baldwin: The idea that these mothers want it to continue is really a bit silly...
08:58:15 PM> Bonnie: Do you find that extended nursers as those who co sleep
08:58:15 PM> LLLLTrishK: ah, LIz, but that is so counter cultural. We 'mericans seem to prize this independence so greatly, and yet look at the costs to our society?
08:58:34 PM> Liz Baldwin: Right, and we have weird attitudes about independence
08:58:36 PM> Andrea: have you discussed custody cases yet?
08:58:40 PM> Liz Baldwin: the child who is quiet is independent
08:58:52 PM> Liz Baldwin: but the toddler who is into everything is not.
08:59:13 PM> Liz Baldwin: Andrea, we have a bit here and there --- breastfeeding mothers have a challenge to protect breastfeeding in family court
08:59:16 PM> Liz Baldwin: but it is not impossible.
08:59:16 PM> JudyS: A good point, Liz. I would be just as concerned about the 8-year-old boy with a bottle. If he could find another way of self-soothing he wouldn't have to miss band practice. Whenever evaluating a behavior of any kind, it is important to see how it fits in with the other activities in an individual's life.
08:59:24 PM> Karleen: Why do not these state agencies dealing with investigating abuse have a policy statement on breastfeeding... save the trouble and hassle of having to put the info to individuals on how it is OK?
08:59:51 PM> Liz Baldwin: Actually, some have made formal statements to the press that they do not remove children for breastfeeding regardless of the age.
08:59:58 PM> Andrea: i recently read "The Irreducible Needs of Children" by Berry Brazelton & Stanley Greenspan
09:00:08 PM> Liz Baldwin: Each has their own policies, though.
09:00:21 PM> Karleen: Where can we access these statements?
09:01:02 PM> Liz Baldwin: They would be in newspaper articles at the time.. for instance, the Syracuse SSA in 1992 made such a statement to the press.
09:01:32 PM> Liz Baldwin: Again, while you may not choose to do this yourself, it is important to realize that a mother may choose to breastfeed this long, and no one has the right to tell her to do otherwise.
09:01:45 PM> Liz Baldwin: No one should. Breastfeeding skipped several generations, and before this children beastfed until they weaned.
09:01:51 PM> LLLLTrishK: Has anyone thought about being proactive... approaching each state's SSA with information, and helping them to formulate a policy BEFORE a family has to experience a disruption?
09:01:58 PM> Liz Baldwin: How do you know that your great great grandmother was not breastfed until 10?
09:02:35 PM> karinibclc: with the world wide averages way above ours
09:02:41 PM> Liz Baldwin: We could do that. I am authoring an article for Breastfeeding Abstracts on it, so you could use that with the other sources to educate...
09:02:46 PM> karinibclc: we actually bring it down
09:03:03 PM> Liz Baldwin: I know this is a sensitive issue - I just want people hear about it.
09:03:30 PM> Liz Baldwin: By the way, the hardest group I ever spoke before was a group of doctors and interns at Miami Children's Hospital last year - and I said the same thing to them -
09:03:41 PM> LLLLTrishK: Liz, have you run into cases where there truly was dysfunction present, where mom was way out of line, or something along these lines?
09:03:46 PM> Liz Baldwin: we can't just people by these choices, and we need to let parents make parenting decisions that work for their family.
09:04:01 PM> Liz Baldwin: We should not be assuming malicious or sick motives just because they do something you might not.
09:04:16 PM> Andrea: What do you tell these mothers who have been fired for pumping in their own private offices?
09:04:16 PM> LLLLTrishK: many seems to think that is the case, in these instances that get publicity, but is it ever the reality?
09:04:17 PM> JudyS: I guess I am basing my ideas about optimal average ages of weaning on the stats about worldwide weaning averages, certainly far below 8 or 10 years of age. It's the basis of the normal curve, when you get out into the area of the 3rd standard deviation from the mean, there could be a problematic issue.
09:04:31 PM> Liz Baldwin: I have not seen a mother using breastfeeding in some sick way, but I have seen several mothers 'claim' that they were in trouble for extended breastfeeding when it was really something else.
09:05:09 PM> Liz Baldwin: Well, if the average age of weaning is 4.2 years (Newton), or between 2 and 8, then is this really off?
09:05:28 PM> LLLLTrishK: Has a parent involved in a case like this ever turned the tables, that you know of, and sued the SSA for the disruption to the family?
09:05:39 PM> karen g: Sure it could be a sign of dysfunction in some cases, but my guess is that it is only one of many behaviors that are being used in a maladaptive way. We don't prosecute for most of those other behaviors...
09:05:40 PM> LLLLTrishK: esp. if it resulted in weaning?
09:05:40 PM> karinibclc: so after age two we have to hide?
09:05:49 PM> Liz Baldwin: No, because they are generally protected from liabilitly, including people that report others.
09:06:24 PM> LLLLTrishK: Boy, that sure seems to leave parents awfully vulnerable to someone with a grudge that might want to make an anonymous phone call. sigh.
09:06:34 PM> Bonnie: No, we don't hide. we just keep Liz's number hand if SSA comes around.
09:06:40 PM> Liz Baldwin: No, I don't think that we need to hide...
09:06:51 PM> Liz Baldwin: but some discretion may be called for, especially when they get older.
09:07:04 PM> JuliusE: Andrea would like her question answered please try and do this
09:07:33 PM> Liz Baldwin: Trish, that is true for anything. If you are reported for a brused knee, or the bandaid not on right, it does not matter - they have to investiage, and you go under a microscope. Just the reality of the legal system.
09:07:34 PM> karinibclc: so civil law covers us to nurse in public anywhere we are allowed to be but not after age two? is that right?
09:07:42 PM> Andrea: What recourse do mothers who are fired for pumping have?
09:07:54 PM> karen g: Remember the babysitter in the case mentioned first called the SSA for reasons other than the extended breastfeeding.
09:07:57 PM> Andrea: for pumping discreetly in their own private offices?
09:08:14 PM> Liz Baldwin: Few mothers are fired for pumping, but many have problems in the workplace.
09:08:30 PM> Liz Baldwin: Sorry Andrea, it flashes so fast sometimes a question appears and disappears while I am writing...
09:08:38 PM> PatIBCLC: I think we need to have Liz back for a night on legal issues in the work place
09:08:40 PM> Liz Baldwin: If a mother is fired, she needs the good legal advice
09:08:41 PM> Andrea: I've encouraged them to contact their state Human Rights Commission and EEOC
09:08:43 PM> karinibclc: its hard to prove
09:08:45 PM> Liz Baldwin: of an attorney in her state
09:08:58 PM> Liz Baldwin: Yes, that is one place to go, but she should get some legal advice from a labor attorney.
09:09:12 PM> Andrea: Right, I encourage them to contact a lawyer
09:09:12 PM> Liz Baldwin: Most moms just need to find a practical solution, or educate their employer.
09:09:23 PM> Liz Baldwin: I have some articles on the Web about these issues - at LLL's webpage
09:09:26 PM> Andrea: It's hard to educate once you have been fired
09:09:28 PM> Len: It would be wise to know the employer's policies before the issue even presents itself.
09:09:31 PM> Liz Baldwin: www.lalecheleague.org/LawMain.html
09:09:50 PM> Andrea: I've had 2 calls on this in the past month
09:09:56 PM> Liz Baldwin: Once fired, legal action is the only recourse ...
09:10:08 PM> Andrea: One in South Carolina and one in Kentucky
09:10:11 PM> Liz Baldwin: Both were fired? or two with pumping problems?
09:10:18 PM> Andrea: Both were fired
09:10:21 PM> Bonnie: Lawyers cost money. is there an agency like LLL that could help with legal fees for low income mothers
09:10:26 PM> Liz Baldwin: I am finding more and more women with these problems contacting me also.
09:10:47 PM> Liz Baldwin: Labor lawyers take cases on a contingency, so it usually does not cost the mother anything if she has a good case.
09:11:00 PM> Andrea: That is good to know
09:11:05 PM> LLLLTrishK: what about raising a stink with local On Your Side Type TV reporters? Does that help or hurt in a situation like Andrea mentions?
09:11:09 PM> Liz Baldwin: For social service agency cases, attorneys are usually appointed if the mother can't afford to hire one.
09:11:17 PM> karinibclc: its very hard to prove im sure their records indicate otherwise
09:11:30 PM> Liz Baldwin: Depends on the case. The mother going to the press is probably the major reason the Illinois mother has her child back.
09:11:59 PM> Karleen: The ILO 103 convention (and the new one- can't remember the number cover lactation breaks in he workplace. Does the US pay any attention to these.
09:12:03 PM> Liz Baldwin: Employment cases are trickly, and the laws are very complicated - some mothers might have a good case, others might not...
09:12:11 PM> Liz Baldwin: No the US could care less..
09:12:21 PM> Liz Baldwin: it is pathetic that we are so behind so many other countries
09:12:34 PM> Liz Baldwin: but we now have three states that require employers to accommodate mothers...
09:12:38 PM> Liz Baldwin: Minn, Tenn, Hawaii...
09:12:47 PM> Andrea: pathetic in more ways than just legal issues...
09:12:51 PM> JuliusE: yeah Minnesota
09:13:03 PM> Liz Baldwin: Minn led the nation being the first one to do this!
09:13:13 PM> JuliusE: yeah minnesota
09:13:30 PM> Liz Baldwin: And hopefully more and more states will copy Minn, and help with this problem.
09:13:33 PM> Karleen: Yes well even ILO 103 does not cover women who are breastfeeding adopted babies...
09:13:49 PM> Liz Baldwin: Karleen, that is terrible! breastfeeding is breastfeeding...
09:14:04 PM> Liz Baldwin: By the way, three states now consider breastfeeding in family law cases.
09:14:10 PM> Liz Baldwin: Things are getting better, you know...
09:14:19 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Liz, I am certainly glad you are a fast typist! We were able to get lots of good discussion in tonight!
09:14:22 PM> Liz Baldwin: more awareness, more change.... more acceptance and more knowledge.
09:14:31 PM> Liz Baldwin: Thanx.. glad to be here!
09:14:36 PM> PatIBCLC: We have to keep educating.
09:14:45 PM> Mary Ryngaert: I hope you'll come back sometime.
09:14:46 PM> Andrea: Thank you for your reponses, Liz.
09:14:48 PM> Len: Interesting chat...good night everyone.
09:14:51 PM> Liz Baldwin: Thank you!
09:15:01 PM> JuliusE: good night Len
09:15:16 PM> PatIBCLC: Thanks, Liz //rose //rose //rose //rose
09:15:17 PM> Bonnie: So the illinois mom has the 6 year old back. Is everything okay with that family now or are they in counseling? what happened to the babysitter that reported the mom?
09:15:25 PM> Karleen: Good afternoon heree. I've had a very interesting lunch break!
09:15:34 PM> JuliusE: By the way this chat as well as many of the others are eventually archived
09:15:42 PM> Liz Baldwin: They are pretty much OK, and the baby sitter is still out there trying to make trouble, from what I hear.
09:15:55 PM> LLLLTrishK: Yes, what happens to these families after the camera lights are turned off and the publicity dies away?
09:16:12 PM> JuliusE: thanksthanks karleen for coming
09:16:13 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Next week we discuss educating: the residents! please join us one and all!
09:16:20 PM> JudyS: Thanks for your input, Liz. Good night everyone.
09:16:23 PM> Liz Baldwin: I'm off now - if anyone wants to talk to me more, feel free to email me at baldwin@lawbf.com, or call me at 954-966-7110. Good night!
09:16:27 PM> JuliusE: THANKS LIZ
09:16:31 PM> JuliusE: //rose
09:16:52 PM> JuliusE: Good session please come next week
09:17:00 PM> Andrea: //peace
09:17:03 PM> JuliusE: thank you MARY
09:17:18 PM> LLLLTrishK: Thanks all
09:17:19 PM> LLLLTrishK: good night
09:17:29 PM> Mary Ryngaert: Thanks Julius, good night all.
09:18:28 PM> PatIBCLC: Good night to all the breastfeeding Angels!
09:41:24 PM> danemma: does any one know how to find a good pediatric surgeon who would let me do an independent study with them
09:41:41 PM> danemma: i'm in high school